EPISODE 62 | BEN GREENFIELD | FOODS AND SUPPLEMENTS THAT ACT LIKE VIAGRA FOR YOUR WHOLE BODY
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In today’s show, you’ll discover…
• Food and supplements that act like Viagra for your whole body • Products to try when you experience a loss of sexual pleasure or decreased orgasms • Specific training schedule to optimize hormonal levels • How to know when cardio crosses the line and has a negative impact on your sexual health • Most effective practices for optimizing biological variables for sexual longevity • Sex solutions rarely talked about that can enhance and restore peak libido, and performance • Nutrients that naturally impact hormone levels without taking a hormone replacement • Tips to boost your sexual vitality when the sizzle starts to fizzle • The role that magnesium plays on your love life…and how much is too much • 3 workout strategies to optimize testosterone levels • Cutting-edge progressive treatments to make sound waves break up plaque to allow better blood flow for a man’s erection • Pros and cons of injecting your clitoris and vaginal areas with stem cells and platelet-rich plasma in order to achieve longer orgasms
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Kathy Smith: Ben, that was a long intro, but welcome to the show. Ben Greenfield: Yeah, that was. I didn’t know we were going to talk about shaving your crotch. But that’s a great intro. I’m game. Kathy Smith: Okay. I gotcha right in here. It seems like when I talk to you in person, when I hear your podcast, read your blogs, you consider yourself a guinea pig to find the latest techniques to perform at your best. It’s interesting, because I know Men’s Health hired you earlier in the year to go down this path of understanding male sexuality. I don’t want us to get too off-topic because people think this male sexuality is just about one part of the body. What I love about what you talk about is that our fitness level, our vitality, our mental, our physical health is tied into every single function of our body including sexuality. So can you talk about why you went down this path of learning everything you could about male sexuality? Ben Greenfield: Sure. First of all, I think that guinea pig is a highly offensive term. I would rather be referred to as a scientific immersive journalist. I think that that’s far more respectable than guinea pig. I’m joking. Yeah, I’m honestly a guinea pig. It turned out to be about a six-month foray into everything that a man could do to enhance his sexual performance. And lest there be any ladies still on the call who haven’t yet hung up, I would tell you that many of these same tactics and techniques that they had me experimenting with and trying are also quite efficacious for pretty much anyone with genitals. A lot of these things are based around the concept of blood flow and the concept of mitochondrial activity, these powerhouses in the interior of the cell and their ability to actually be able to produce ATP and cellular energy. I mean, your sexual organs have a great deal of mitochondria in the same way that the rest of your body does. What Men’s Health wanted me to do was to try out all of these both new-fangled and ancient practices that people are turning to or have traditionally turned to for enhancing sexual health. What do I mean by that? Some of the more interesting procedures that they had me do, one was something called photo biomodulation. This was based on research back in the 40s – way back then – that showed that men who exposed their balls to sunlight actually produced more testosterone. Research since then has shown that a specific wavelength of infrared light – it’s actually a wavelength if you want the scientific details – of about 600 to 800 nanometers. When genitals are exposed to that wavelength of light, you actually increase, for example in men, the production of testosterone, because it activates these things called lytic cells in the testes. This is a fantastic way to boost testosterone, but it also increases blood flow because there’s a slight warming effect from the light, and it also increases sperm production. The way that you do something like this and the way that I did it for the article is that you purchase an infrared light. I used a brand called Juice. There are others out there. You just want to look for about 600 to 800 nanometers. And you treat yourself for about 10 to 20 minutes a day. The way I did it was I had a light panel sitting at my office desk – I have one of these standup desks – and I would just pull down my pants for about 10 to 20 minutes on any given day of work most days of the week and use that as a treatment. It turns out it actually works both quantitatively in terms of my testosterone counts and also qualitatively in terms of sexual performance. Kathy Smith: I certainly hope that you were either working from home or you can close the door in your office. Ben Greenfield: Good point. I, both, work from home and close the door to my office. So, yeah. Kathy Smith: Actually, just to add to that, when I would go in for my acupuncture, I would use one of these lights. I would have my pants pulled down and the needles would be going in, in different places. But having that infrared light mainly on my abdominal region and also genital region, I found was so warming. It lit up that whole area, so I would imagine a lot is happening inside the female body also. Ben Greenfield: Yeah. Females can use this as well. You don’t get the same hormonal response, but you get a similar blood flow response. Kind of similarly, when it comes to blood flow, another thing that they had me do was something that’s also increasingly popular. It’s called acoustics sound wave therapy. This was originally developed as a treatment for erectile disfunction or pyrones disease in men. Pyrones, by the way – your fun fact for a cocktail party – is painful curvature in the male penis during an erection. It’s a very uncomfortable condition that an unfortunate small subset of guys have. And a lot more guys, as you know and a lot of listeners know, struggle with erectile dysfunction even shockingly now, young guys – guys who are 25, 30 years old. Anyways though, this acoustic soundwave therapy, what it does is it breaks up old blood vessels and allows for angiogenesis in the creation of new blood vessels. When this happens, you get better erections, and you get more blood flow, and you get longer orgasms, and better sexual performance. They do this with what looks like a jackhammer for your crotch. They wave this thing all around nether regions and blast you with sound waves for about 20 minutes. They also do this for women. It’s the same procedure for women. It’s pretty profound once the numbing cream wears off. You put some numbing cream on, because blasting your crotch with soundwaves is actually not comfortable unless it’s numb. So once the numbing cream wears off, you can get really good sexual performance for about one to two months, which that’s good news for especially men who are spending a lot of money on Viagra and having to time that Viagra and figure out when they’re going to take it and whether they need to take it, and then put up with the fact that it is a pharmaceutical and it does get processed by the liver. So this idea of using something like sound waves is a very good option. That was another thing that I found to actually pretty effective as far as almost immediate results like that night after the procedure. So acoustic sound wave therapy is another. The company that I went with that was called Gains Wave. Kathy Smith: We’ll have liner notes for all this, so if the listeners want to check out any of the stuff that you talk about, we’ll make sure they’re in the liner notes. So, what you’re saying is that in a sense, the sound wave’s breaking up some of the plaque, the micro plaque and allowing better blood flow. Is it also increasing new blood vessels or is it just cleaning out the ones you have? Ben Greenfield: You actually grow new blood vessels. In many cases, when you’re going for techniques or technology that involves better living through science like this, you can always throw extra things in that enhance the sex. For example, any time you’re developing new blood vessels or trying to increase blood flow and you’re about to do a procedure like that or you’re about to do a procedure like that photo biomodulation that I talked about – that light therapy – you can take supplements or eat foods that also almost act like – whether you’re male or female – Viagra for your whole body. By the way, a lot of women don’t know that Viagra works very well as a female sexual performance enhancement aid also. I choose natural versions of it when I can. So, what do I mean by that? I mean things like beet root, beets, fermented beets, beet juice, beet powder, beet supplements, anything like that is fantastic for nitric oxide blood flow and sexual performance. Arugula, precurso rs to really good minerals like zinc such as shell fish or another example would be pumpkin seeds. There’s even a more French supplement that they make from black ants now that’s 10 times higher in zinc than shell fish. So it turns out that ants are the new aphrodisiac. It’s this black ant abstract powder that you can stir into lattes or smoothies. It works really well as a zinc precursor. Kathy Smith: Which ant product do you use? Are you using one? Ben Greenfield: I buy it right now from a company called Lost Empire Herbs. Because I got tired or foraging for tiny, black ants in my backyard. [overlapping speech 00:14:01] Kathy Smith: Plus, they sting when they’re going down, kind of that burning sensation. Ben Greenfield: Right. Exactly. Anything dark red, dark purple, black, full of flavonoids, some of the darker berries like blueberries and blackberries, preferably organic, wild varieties – not sprayed, non-organic varieties. Arugula, like I mentioned is really good. It’s a wild green that increases blood flow. A lot of these things that act as cardiovascular support compounds, they’re fantastic to include as a regular part of your diet but especially before your procedures like this. That’s how we got down this rabbit hole like acoustic sound wave therapy. Using stuff like that beforehand is a very good idea. There’s one other kind of hack that I like from a supplement standpoint. A company BioTropic, they make supplements for athletes who are supposed to perform at altitude to build their red blood cells and open up vascularity. Those also can be taken pre-sex, or for sexual performance, or as a daily sexual tonic. They work very well for that too. It’s like a blend of echinacea and some liver powder and some beet powder. I really like those. I still compete as a professional athlete at altitude in many cases. But I found that when I started taking things like that, it also really helped out with sexual performance. Kathy Smith: Tell me the BioTropic product again. Is it just called BioTropic? Ben Greenfield: The company is called BioTropic. I try to get a lot of these folks on my podcast, interview them, and chat about their formulations. I have an interview on my website with their founder. It’s something that I originally started taking for altitude, but that works like a natural form of Viagra as well. Kathy Smith: Let me just interrupt for a second. It’s something that I find for myself. I live at altitude in Park City, so I’m always looking for products like that, that help me continue my endurance training, maintain blood flow, and for my daughter right now. I mentioned to you when we were hiking, one of my daughters went to the Olympics, and she’s training at altitude, training for the 2020 Olympics. She’s Colorado Springs as we speak going through some testing right now. Some of the things that they’re looking at is liver function, red blood cells, and blood flow. It’s important for all of us whether your 30 or 80, trying to have sex, or just trying to have a healthy life. It’s interesting that we’re talking about this, because it’s something I’ve been focusing on a lot recently. Ben Greenfield: Yeah, it is. Erectile dysfunction– women don’t have erectile dysfunction but sometimes a loss of sexual pleasure, shorter or a decrease in orgasms, all that can indicate a decrease in blood flow. With erectile dysfunction or the equivalent thereof in women, it’s considered to be the canary in the coal mine for cardiovascular disease, meaning that if you’re having trouble getting it up or you’re having trouble getting blood flow to your genitals, it often indicates that there are higher health issues with cardiovascular health. In many cases, if you look at the heart, there’s plaque formation, there’s cardiovascular issues, there’s vascular inflammation. So in many cases, using a lot of tactics like this, especially some of those nutrients or supplements or foods we just talked about, it’s really good for– talking about your daughter– not just cardiovascular performance but also control of a lot of cardiovascular risk factors. Some of these things are important just as a daily staple in those folks’ diet. We should definitely ensure that at some point, we talk about injections as well because there were some pretty fringe injections associated with that whole article too. Kathy Smith: Okay, well, I want to save that. I’m going to tease that for the audience. We are going to be talking about injections because I find it fascinating, that part of it. Let’s continue on for a second. You mentioned cardio, and you mentioned that you are still competing. And I know you come out of the triathlon world. I know that one of the things you’ve talked about is this chronic cardio routine that many of us can get into. I know I interviewed Mark Sisson. I know that I started my whole career with marathon running, and I noticed that I had to shift my training. Can you address this chronic cardio as it relates to health but also as it relates to testosterone levels and sexual vitality? Ben Greenfield: Certainly. That’s a deep, dark rabbit hole. I’ll give you the basic overview of it. The thing is, there’s two ways to build aerobic endurance and the number in the density of your mitochondria and even the health of your mitochondria very significantly. The first is low-level aerobic exercise, such as you would do with walking, hiking, gardening, doing some yard work, cleaning the garage. A lot of people think low-level aerobic exercise is that lunchtime slog that people do as their daily death march – the folks you pass on the trail who have kind of a scowl on their face or obviously suffering out on their chronic, repetitive motion, daily run. That’s not a aerobic exercise. That’s right in between. That’s what I call black hole training or no-man’s land where you’re cleaning up your body, but you’re not really producing much fitness. You see a lot of endurance athletes slipping into this erroneous form of training. The other way to build aerobic fitness very efficiently is high intensity interval training like hopping on an aerosol bike, doing about a set of 20-second hard or 10-second easy, maybe recovering and walking that off for a little while and coming back for one more round. That type of thing. Kathy Smith: That’s a type of sprint. Okay. Got it. Ben Greenfield: Right. And when you look at the lion’s share of the best aerobic athletes on the face of the planet, the best endurance athletes on the face of the planet, we see them training what’s called the polarized training approach, meaning they’re doing about 80% of their training at that very easy aerobic conversational pace, putting in a lot of miles, putting in a lot of what we call base training and about 20% of their training done at a very intense pace, meaning above a lactate threshold or higher. Lactate threshold is where your muscles start to burn where lactic acid is building up faster than it can even catalyze. You don’t see a lot of training kind of in-between the aerobic endurance zone and the lactic acid zone, because it’s a very good way to beat yourself up to the plate glycogen storage muscle carbohydrate and stored liver carbohydrate and to cause a hormonal depletion as well. Because it kind of requires the body to go to battle every day, but it’s not like short and intense. It’s this long, voluminous battle that just beats you up and spits you out. So the best way to train, if you’re a professional endurance athlete, is 80% of your time is spent with the easy aerobic conversational runs, and then 20% is spent deep in the pain cave. If you’re the average person who doesn’t have hours and hours to be out every day doing aerobics conversational training – this is how I train – you hack your environment so that you engage in low-level physical activity all day long. I’ve got a walking treadmill at my desk, and I’ve got a kettle bell right by the door of my office. I’ll stop and do some kettle bell swings – light kettle bell swings but enough to get my heart rate up. Every time I’m at a restaurant, if I get up to go to the bathroom, I do 40 squats. Our mutual friend, Jeff Hayes, calls them my piss squats. I prefer to call them air squats. When I’m on an airplane, anytime I stand up I have a set series of stretches. When I go to the airplane bathroom, I do 20 squats. I have all these little rules in my life so I’m kind of moving all day long. Then I do a high intensity workout typically at the end of the day, which is when your body temperature peaks, and your reaction time peaks, and your post-workout recovery synthesis peaks. A lot of these things peak that make an afternoon heart workout or an early evening heart workout kind of being the best time of the day to do a heart workout if you’re going to do one. That’s really the way that you build cardiovascular endurance and maintain cardiovascular fitness without having to empty the body every day of glycogen, causing hormonal depletion and do a lot of this training that’s not easy enough and also not hard enough. The problem is it’s so easy for people to just get into this slog. “I’m going to spend 40 minutes on the elliptical trainer. It’ll be kind of hard, kind of easy, and I’m just going to do it to punch the clock,” then walk out and give myself a pat on the back that I have put some endurance in the bank, or built my cardiovascular fitness, or burned some fat, or burned some calories. Ultimately, you would have been far better doing a lot of walking, and tweaking your office day so that you’re moving, and then going to the gym, maybe hopping on that same elliptical and doing ten 30 second sprints after warm up and a cool down with a good amount of recovery in-between those sprints. Then you can call it good. Kathy Smith: Yeah, I call those squats – when you go to the bathroom – I call them my potty squatties. I do the same thing, but I do my potty squatties. I do those. I’m right with you. I do little things throughout the day, constantly stretching, moving, reaching, doing body weight exercises. And then using that gym time for something intense whether it is, what you’re talking about, sprints on the treadmill or elliptical, but then also with weight training. So shift over to the weight training, because I know you have views on that. I know a lot of especially of our women and our other listeners sometimes get into that three pounds, lots of repetitions, go forever. Talk about the importance of doing a little heavy lifting sometimes. Ben Greenfield: Heavy lifting, just from a pure ancestral standpoint, we not only know gives you the type of fast-twitch muscle that can confers longevity, but we also know that things like grip strength and even the amount of weight that you can dead lift, specifically with something called a hex bar, which I love, because the hex bar is a very easy to pick a heavy weight off the ground without throwing your back out. I think everyone should own one. These are the types of things that are correlated with longevity, and the ability to build strength, and the ability to maintain muscle very effectively. Heavier training to failure. Now, the caveat here is that there’s a researcher named Brad Schoenfeld who’s done some pretty good research that shows that if you are using body weight or light weights, you still can build muscle or maintain muscle, but you must complete that set to failure. Any time I’m kind of making fitness decisions, many of them are made in the light of me considering the idea that time is money. Time is money, meaning if I really want to do a chest workout. If it’s going to take me six minutes to do let’s say 70 pushups to failure, to really get to the point where I’m using body weight training to get the type of results that I want, or I can do a 90 second set with a heavy set of dumb bells, or maybe I put on a weighted vest and do the pushups, or maybe I use a machine chest press, if I can use a heavier weight and get far better results in a shorter period of time with a heavier weight, I’ll choose the latter. So it’s not that body weight training doesn’t work. You just have to do a frickin’ boatload of it to actually build muscle or maintain muscle and go to complete failure. It just takes a lot of time. So I’m a big fan of– for example, when I travel– I actually just posted this to my Instagram account this morning. I posted my workout this morning. I do about a 15 to a 20-minute weight training workout. All I do is one, single set to absolute failure. It takes me about 90 seconds to two minutes of the chest press, the pull-down, shoulder press, the seated row, and the leg press. I know all those strength conditioning coaches or personal trainers listening in might be sniggering about that because it’s not the best protocol for athletic performance, and I would absolutely agree. An athlete still needs to be doing squats, and dead lifts, and clings, and snatches and all these more athletic movements. But for the lion’s share of the population who just want to get the most bang for their buck out of strength training and build or maintain muscle, just one single heavy set to failure, one to two times a week, working each of the major body parts – assuming that you’re really do indeed go to failure – works amazingly well. Kind of in the same way that assuming you go hard enough – like that Tabata set I talked about for high intensity interval training – as long as that’s done really hard, you get really good results. With strength training, it’s heavy, it’s short, and it is preferably full body. We’re talking about the minimum effective dose of exercise into really good, effective type of approach. Kathy Smith: And you’re in there probably two days a week, three days a week doing strength training? What’s your weekly protocol for strength training? Ben Greenfield: My current protocol is I strength train on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Monday and Friday, I do a workout very similar to what I just described to you. Full body, I’ll do a warm up and a cool down but then single set to failure heavy training. On Wednesdays, that’s my day where I do a lot more kind of like functional fair pulling pushups, kettle bells, bands. I kind of like to mix it up on Wednesdays. I even will sometimes pop into a boot camp class. That’s kind of my fun day. It’s still a strength training day, but it’s a little bit lighter with more body weight or lighter weight based. Even on those days, I still follow that rule that if I really want to hit that muscle, I hit it really dang close to failure. So my current routine looks like this. Monday and Friday, super slow strength training, one single set to failure. And then Wednesdays is more like a functional movement day, and it just kind of varies widely. To fill in the gaps, like I mentioned, I’m engaged in low level physical activity all day long just by walking, and moving, and making sure I don’t have my ass planted in a chair for eight hours. Then I do those Tabata sets I talked about usually as a warm up or a cool down for my Monday, Wednesday, and Friday workouts. Then on Tuesday and on Thursday, I only have one workout. On Tuesdays, I do a workout that is specifically designed to increase my mitochondrial density. All that is, is short 10 to 30 second bursts of very intense exercise followed by complete three to four-minute rests. The way that I currently do that is I have a bicycle in my office, and I actually as one of these bio hacker– I’ll use your vernacular, guinea pig guy– I have one of these– it’s basically like a hypoxic training device that allows me to simulate all of the mitochondria building and red blood cell building instead of spending the whole day in what’s called a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. I just strap this mask on my face instead. It gives me pure oxygen and then takes away all my oxygen. It just goes back and forth. What I do is I have this I have this bike in my office, I put the mask on. It takes me about 30 minutes. I do several rounds of this super hard 10 to 30 seconds, and then three to four minutes off. That’s Tuesdays. Then Thursdays– I’m an exercise physiologist. That’s what I have my master’s degree in. So whenever I look at an exercise program, I look at what holes need to be filled. Everything I’ve just described to you, endurance is filled by my low-level physical activity all day long. Strength is filled by the strength protocols that I spelled out for you. Mitochondrial density is filled by those sessions I’m doing on Tuesdays. Lactic acid tolerance or what’s called muscular endurance is taken care of by the sessions that I’m warming up or cooling down with, those Tabata sets, before or after my strength training workout. The only missing variable from a physiology standpoint is my VO2 max. The way that you train the VO2 max – and this probably mentally my most difficult session of the week – is you want to move your body at the maximum sustainable pace anywhere from four to six minutes and then recover for an equal period of time for about four to six minutes. And you just rinse, wash, and repeat that for about, you guessed it, four to six rounds. The way that I do this is typically I’ll either head out for a run or I’ll take my elliptical trainer out. I have one of these standup elliptical trainers I can take out on the road or I’ll get on that same bike in my office I talked about earlier, and I just do four to six rounds of four to six minutes hard, four to six minutes easy. In a nutshell, that’s really what my workout protocol is. And I’m training about probably one-quarter the amount of my peers that I’m racing against in a lot of these spartan races, and triathlons, and stuff like that. I do just fine. And honestly a big part of it is because a lot of stuff seems short, and hard, and fast, and heavy, but I’m just kind of moving all day long in-between so I have that base level of endurance that all of that is kind of laid on top of like icing on a cake. Kathy Smith: Ben, that is so good. What I really want to emphasize also to our listeners, as much as this sounds like Ben’s talking about a training schedule for a triathlete, which he is, this is very similar if not identical to my training schedule. It’s not exactly the same tools, but the protocol is very much what I do. And it’s very much in line with this pro-aging, with staying fit or what I like to say – staying younger longer. Because everything he’s talking about is it helps boost, as he mentioned, testosterone levels, which is really good for women as we age to maintain our growth hormones, our testosterone levels. But it’s also the mitochondria, everything else he’s talking about on the cellular level, it’s amazing. What I love about it as I’ve gotten older and I’ve been doing this kind of training routine, you do so much less and you get so much better results. It’s just amazing. I don’t want everybody to think that this is a training schedule for a strapping triathlete. This is one for all of us. We’ve just got to vary– Ben Greenfield: I don’t know if anybody was doing the math. But that’s about 40 to 45 minutes a day. Kathy Smith: Yeah. It’s quite amazing. I know I’ve got to let you go. We’ve got to wrap it up. But I can’t let you get away without talking about penis injections. Ben Greenfield: We’ll tack on a few minutes here and talk about not just penis injections but my wife’s done it too, so penis or vagina injections. She’s had both her clitoris and vaginal areas injected with stem cells and platelet-rich plasma. This was not from a testosterone standpoint but just from a purer sexual performance standpoint, probably the most effective thing that I did. Also, admittedly, the most expensive. But when you consider the fact that if you’re going to get stem cells injected into your junk, you actually have to extract those stem cells from your body. There’s a cool side benefit in that whatever medical clinic you visit– there’s a couple that I can tell you about that I like if you want. Whatever medical clinic that you visit, when they extract your stem cells, which would then be typically mixed with your own plasma, which has a whole bunch of really concentrated growth factors in it, and then inject it into the meat or the head of your penis if you’re a guy or typically the lips or up near the clitoris area if you’re a woman, typically they’re harvesting stem cells – can harvest extra and store your stem cells. So if you get hurt, if you get a concussion or TDI, if you get in a car accident and you mess up your back or your knee, anything like that, you can actually have those stem cells re-injected back into the area that you hurt. I like the idea of using stem cells for sexual performance just because there are some side benefits to having your own stem cells from either your fat or bone marrow. Those are the two main locations they’ll take them from. There’s a lot of benefit to having those stored and available for future use. What they do is they take out the stem cells like I mentioned. They’ll mix them with some growth factors from your blood. Sometimes they’ll even throw some things in there that upgrade your stem cells. The two most popular things right now would be exosomes, which most physicians get from a lab in Florida called ChimeraLabs, and these are little cells that go in molecules that cause the stem cells to be far more efficacious or something called VCells. And VCells are right now– the main company that’s administering those as BioReset Medical with Dr. Mac Cook in San Jose or Dr. Helen Chen in New York City. Those are profound for repair and recover everything from the back to joints. But you get injected. I’ve done it twice now. Once I was under anesthesia because I did a full body stem cell makeover and got every joint injected, and then I got my penis injected. I got my face injected with exosomes and PRP and just did a full cosmetic, sexual and musculoskeletal procedure. That was actually where you live, Kathy, in Park City at Dr. Harry Adelson’s clinic. You can also just get a numbing agent if you’re just going to do your vagina, your penis. You get a numbing agent injected and they follow that up with a stem cell injection. It typically takes about three or four days to kick in. Unlike the acoustic sound wave therapy – although the stem cell therapy is little more uncomfortable, it’s more expensive, it just stays with you. You’re good to go. I still feel like a 16-year-old boy and wake up with morning wood. You can ask my wife. She was blown away. My orgasms last like 90 seconds, which for a guy is a really long time. It works, those stem cells. So I had one of my procedures done at Dr. Harry Adelson’s clinic in Park City. I had another procedure done at the U.S. Stem Cell Clinic in Florida. So there’s a good east coast option, a good west coast option for folks. I wrote about all the procedures and a whole lot more – everything from not ejaculating for a month to testing out all these different gas station dick pills to a whole bunch of other things. You can probably still find it on Amazon. It was in the January 2018 edition of Men’s Health Magazine. Kathy Smith: Yeah. It was a fascinating article. I went through it. I pulled it out and gave it to people. It’s a really fascinating article, so everybody should look for that. I will let you know how to get a hold of Ben. I’ve got to let Ben go right now, but you’re amazing. I look forward to seeing you again in Park City. Ben Greenfield: By the way, you’re amazing too. I need to let all your listeners know. Kathy went out for a hike with a group of folks I was with down there in Park City – particularly me and my friend who are both pretty seasoned endurance athletes, and she crushed it. She led the hike and then sprinted back down the mountain afterwards with us. I was like, “Who is this gal?” I was blown away by your fitness levels, Kathy. So kudos. You’re doing something right. Kathy Smith: Yeah. It’s fun. Ben Greenfield: The other thing I should mention is that in two days, I’ll be in Park City. I’ll be there with my wife, and I should connect you two so you can go on a hike or something. Kathy Smith: Okay. Perfect. We’ll see you in a couple of days. Can’t wait. Thanks again. Good luck. I’ll also be seeing you, by the way, at the A4M conference in Las Vegas in December, which you’re a keynote speaker. Again, I’m going to let everybody know all the things you’re up to and how to get a hold of you. I appreciate the time. Big hug. Bye-bye. Ben Greenfield: Thanks, Kathy. Back at you. Later. Kathy Smith: Bye-bye.
